Ep. 1: How Learning Japanese Took a Toll on my Childhood - with Kisara Takahashi

In our inaugural podcast episode, our guest Kisara recounts her upbringing, where she navigated her parents speaking Japanese in the predominantly English-speaking USA. We delve into the impacts, both positive and negative, that this linguistic environment had on her life.

TRANSCRIPT

[Marvin]

Welcome to the first episode of the still-unnamed Linguaphile magazine podcast. My name is Marvin and with me is Anna.

[Anna]

And we are part of Linguaphile, a non-profit language magazine dedicated to amplifying the voices of people whose lives are intricately intertwined with language.

[Marvin]

Alright, today we already have a wonderful guest with us who will tell us a little bit more about her personal experience with being raised bilingually. Would you like to quickly introduce yourself for the listeners?

[Kisara]

Yeah, of course. Thank you again for having me. So my name is Kisara, which is actually a Japanese name my mom gave me. She is from Japan. My dad's American and I made a video recently that was about my linguistic upbringing with my two parents here in America. Basically, my video got into the nuances of growing up bilingual with Japanese in the US.

[Marvin]

Yeah, we saw your video and it went kind of viral, right? Like so many people commented.

[Kisara]

Yeah, yeah. It was, I didn't know what to expect. I'm actually still pretty new to YouTube. It's only my second video on this pretty new channel, but yeah, it's cool to see that it resonated with a lot of people.

[Marvin]

Could you tell us a little bit more about that thing you mentioned? You were raised basically monolingually Japanese by both of your parents in a majority English speaking US, right?

[Kisara]

Yes. So I would say there's two angles to this in terms of, because my video, the title was calling it a language experiment, which was an interesting choice of words, I guess. But I didn't know quite like how else I should describe it because I guess on the one hand, you have the fact, yeah, so my mom is like fully Japanese for a Japanese immigrant. My dad is born and raised in the US, a native English speaker, but he speaks fluent Japanese, like reads, writes, speaks fluent Japanese. And so he and my mom have never spoken a word of English with each other. It's only been Japanese. And I have not met any other couple like that in the US, especially with the language as difficult as Japanese. So that already created kind of, I guess I call it a language experiment in a way simply because of the novelty that comes from having had this language environment where, you know, people would see me with my dad, if my mom's not like, wasn't with us, like growing up, people would just be like, are they speaking Russian? Just based on appearances alone would not expect my dad to be busting out this fluent Japanese.

So there's kind of that like interracial like aspect, I guess, of like what felt kind of novel to me. But I guess the other angle is the fact that they, my parents, took my Japanese kind of language upbringing to the extent that they did. What I mean by that, I guess, I didn't get into this as much in the video, which I would have liked to do, except I didn't.

I was like, I want to keep it concise, like three minutes is already enough of people's time. But they sent me to, I don't know if y'all are familiar with like this concept, but the Japanese government sponsors schools overseas called, the official word is like Hoshū Jugyō Kō, like Hoshūkō, like basically the supplementary schools that are designed for Japanese expats to go back to Japan, basically to, for their kids to keep up their Japanese so that when they go back to Japan, they can readapt pretty seamlessly.

And so those schools are, they are run fully like with the same Japanese curriculum as schools in Japan. And so my parents decided to send me to one of those for like, it was like a full ten years. And through like the American equivalent of ninth grade, which would be like the end of middle school in Japan.

And so it was, I guess I felt that that was unique or novel in the sense that there really weren't any other kids who went through the full ten years like I did who are not like expats, who didn't have plans to just immediately move back to Japan. So that kind of the intensity, I guess, of like the Japanese kind of training I got in the US was another thing. Yeah.

[Anna]

Would you say therefore that apart from language, because you were so immersed in, you know, Japanese at home as well as in school, would you say that therefore in terms of cultural upbringing, would you say that at that point of time, you were a lot more Japanese than American?

[Kisara]

Oh, that's a really good question. I think, you know, it's kind of, I think Japanese culture in the US is, it's sort of tricky defining, I guess, like now there's like the concept Japanese-American that kind of like, you know, the hyphenated Japanese-American or Asian-American that I guess I feel I probably most strongly identify with in terms of like a hybrid of the cultures. But I would say there just aren't that many Japanese people in America now to begin with. Most people who are of Japanese descent, they are like third or fourth generations. Like maybe their grandparents came here during the war or something like that. So it's a little different maybe from some other groups out there who have much bigger immigrant populations where there's like a stronger sense of like ethnic solidarity, maybe. Just in my experience, at least. That's what I've observed. Yeah.

[Marvin]

So you mentioned your dad was fluent in Japanese, right?

[Kisara]

Yes.

[Marvin]

Did he learn entirely for your mom? Was there any other reason for him to learn Japanese?

[Kisara]

It was honestly, as far as I know, just on a whim. In college, he went to a school in the US, a college in the US and just decided he was taking, I think, a linguistics class and then just decided, hey, why not just take a Japanese class? He'd never been to Japan before. And so he met my mom after he'd already learned Japanese for a few years and was pretty proficient in the language. Yeah.

[Marvin]

I just wanted to ask if you felt any difference between - or I don't know if you can differentiate between that influence right now - but did you feel that there was a difference between the Japanese you learned from your dad and the Japanese you learned from your mom?

[Kisara]

Oh, that's a really good question. I would say yes. In the sense, there is a bit of a interesting power dynamic in the household that comes with the fact my mom is the native speaker.

And so my dad, he loves, he's just a language geek in the first place. So he just always likes to challenge himself with new words and new expressions. And so he'll constantly ask my mom to correct his Japanese or things like that.

And so I grew up always watching my dad kind of defer to my mom if he didn't know exactly the right way to phrase something or asking her to correct his mistakes. Whereas there was never a situation the other way around of my mom asking my dad for language help. So in that sense, I would say it was different.

Yeah. But my dad also taught me, I think he, unlike my mom, one big advantage that came from learning Japanese from a non-native Japanese speaker is the fact that he could appreciate just how difficult the language is and the fact he also grew up in the U.S. And just understanding, I guess, what the process of this second language acquisition is like. I at least had the advantage of being a heritage speaker, but he didn't start learning Japanese till he was an adult. So in that sense, I think he had insights my mom didn't as just a native speaker who can take for granted just knowing Japanese since she was born. Yeah.

[Anna]

You mentioned in the video about, you know, because you grew up with Japanese, that you felt insecure about your English proficiency at one point. Could you tell us a bit more about what made you start to, I mean, how did it start to manifest? And at around what age, maybe you started to realize that you might have a deficiency when it comes to English and how did you go through that struggle or start to cope with it in the end?

[Kisara]

Yeah, so I think my parents started picking up on it before I did with like, I think in the video there's references to how my test scores, like I guess the English proficiency essentially was much lower than average or compared to like my scores on like other sections of an exam. It was like there was a huge gap. And so, yeah, but I think as a kid, I didn't necessarily have that awareness so much. I didn't really care about tests, that kind of thing. But definitely, I think socially I started to pick up on it more, you know, kids going through middle school or adolescence is kind of when they're the most insecure in a lot of ways. So I think that's where it started to hit home for me a little bit more.

Also seeing, like spending more time with like, American relatives who grew up monolingual and spending extended periods of time with them. And like sometimes I actually had like a little diary kind of I started probably around middle school, like around this time that where I would write down words I picked up in conversation I didn't know, but was embarrassed to ask someone like what it meant. And I would just like keep telling myself, OK, it's this word.

And then afterwards, like jot it down. And so like then I would afterwards like look up the word and teach myself the word, that kind of thing. So, yeah, some of it was kind of like internalized in that sense where I wouldn't like express it outwardly like, oh, I don't know this word or I don't know that word. But yeah, but there were times as well where, yeah, I would it was really obvious. I just like my peers might pick up. I mean, I don't have an accent, I guess, speaking English. So it's not like even if there were gaps in my vocabulary that I immediately my English sounded like foreign or something like that. But just, yeah, little little like idioms. I think especially idioms like I think that's one of the things in any language really native speakers probably take for granted the most is just like, you know, just expressions that really concisely express what you're trying to say that you don't it's not necessarily the most advanced like word, but it's just like a word that just a lot of native native speakers would choose to use in daily life, like saying you're full of yourself instead of you're bombastic or something like that. Like an SAT word or something, right?

Like a native speaker would probably just say like they're full of themselves. But it's like the little nuances like that, I think, because a lot of idioms you do kind of a lot of them you just pick up, I think, colloquially or from like your parents and spoken language. It there was that kind of thing I noticed in particular gaps that I'd have to write down in my secret diary.

[Marvin]

I think in your video, I think you mentioned it was the word intersection where your dad realized that there might be some some problems with the way they raised you bilingually. Would you like to tell us a little bit more about that one?

[Kisara]

Yeah, I think it was a huge epiphany for sure. Like for me and my dad as well in the car that moment where, you know, we stopped at an intersection and he just he was on the phone with someone speaking in English with them and mentioning, oh, we've just arrived at an intersection. And I was like, wait, what's that? And I knew the concept from math, like that, like in geometry or whatever, but I didn't fully register. Oh, wait, there's like the word in daily life! Zhat you kind of would have had to hear it in daily life to know what it means. And so that's where my dad was like, alarm bells. Wait, maybe maybe I should start speaking English with her to expose her to more vocabulary like that. Yeah.

[Marvin]

Was that the first time he spoke English with you or how did you realize that?

[Kisara]

Yeah, I know it sounds like it's kind of crazy to me, like looking back but that was literally the first time we'd ever exchanged English with each other. But it literally was. I think even in settings with other Americans or like visiting American family and stuff like he and I would still speak Japanese with each other in front of other people until then.

But it was like, wow, here we are. Yeah, like it was a pretty surreal moment, but it was in that particular moment I remember. Yeah, it was very, it was an adjustment for sure starting out.

[Anna]

So I guess that's like really the turning point for a really huge increase. You mentioned about the number of hours that increased with your with your use of English, right?

[Kisara]
Yes, yes.

[Anna]

We already saw in your video that you had a remarkable increase in your scores for your English proficiency apart from the academic performance, right? Did you see any other differences that you found in yourself after that point when your dad started speaking in English with you?

[Kisara]

This might sound intuitive, but my writing definitely improved. I think, yeah, just having more confidence in my writing. I always really enjoyed just freestyle kind of like writing through elementary school or middle school or something like that. But once I kind of had the building blocks of idioms, more vocabulary and things, it definitely just gave me so much more to work with and just like writing stories and things like that. So, yeah, writing for sure.

[Marvin]

So what I what I just realized through what you were saying is I thought essentially the monolingual education you received was entirely from your parents. But you also went to an entirely Japanese school, right? So basically, you didn't have any any social contexts outside of Japanese speaking children, right?

[Kisara]

Oh, yeah, I'll clarify. It's a little confusing. Yeah, no, it's like because I don't know, that there are like the Hoshūkō concept, like the Japanese, these kind of like government sponsored schools, if like, that's, if there are other governments that do that. So it's a very maybe Japanese specific thing. But I think so I had it was kind of like a Saturday school, basically. I would go once a week, every week. But otherwise, I was at a regular American school. So I did have a social context through like from American peers in that sense. Yeah.

[Marvin]

So what I wanted to ask is, once your dad realized that maybe speaking to you in English as well might be a good idea. How long did it take? Or I think you mentioned that you only spoke to him in English when you were not with your mom. So was this someone something your mom didn't know about? And when was the point where your mom as well kind of realized that might be an option as well?

[Kisara]

I think that same day, my dad had a conversation with her about it in Japanese, of course. And she was like, OK, yeah, you know. But nothing changed in my life to this day. I've only ever spoken Japanese with her. And when the three of us are together, definitely still all Japanese. But yeah. But I do spend a lot of time with my dad as well. So it made a difference to just even one on one like that. Start speaking English to each other, I would say.

[Anna]

Is your mom conversant in English?

[Kisara]

She, she's, she cannot. She doesn't have the interest, I think, or the need in the sense, I guess my dad can just accommodate her even though she's in America. I know it sounds like, wait, what? Like, why are you in America then? But my yeah, they've made it work so that my like she's just got someone who can speak Japanese with their 24 seven. But but yeah, I mean, she she like like she she can, you know, get around, I guess, like like at a grocery store or something like that. But but yeah, she definitely is not fluent, I would say.

[Marvin]

I think that that's a similar situation with expats in Japan, though. So it's not that uncommon to see that, I feel. Yeah, but it was, so that means this was not something your parents basically passionately enforced to you. It was more like they did it this way and it was never different. And it was only at this age that all of us realized, oh, maybe this might have been not the best option for us.

[Kisara]

Yeah, I would say it was kind of just in that, like it all, again as a kid, I think I'd have to ask, like, honestly, now, like to my parents, like, wait, so what was, were there other things going on in the background that I wasn't aware of? But to my knowledge, that was kind of the main just kind of like that isolated incident was already enough for my dad to do something about this.

[Anna]

Can we infer that the reason why your parents chose to speak to you in only Japanese was really because of your mom's proficiency in English? That she’s much more comfortable in Japanese? And therefore, there was this decision? You also mentioned that your dad's really in that way, really interested in Japanese language, right? So was it just to accommodate your mom or was it just was it really a conscious decision to only use Japanese for any other reason?

[Kisara]

I think it was a combination of things, for sure, where it just made sense with my mom and the fact she would prefer to just speak Japanese if she can. And the fact I think my parents really wanted me to be able to actually speak, read, write Japanese and knew that it would take a lot of hours and a lot of exposure if I'm not growing up in Japan to be able to really pull that off. And I think it honestly in their shoes, like looking back, it makes sense that they did that because, yeah, it really the like, Japanese is just like so dissimilar from English and there really aren't that many opportunities to practice in America of all places. So I think it like they felt like they had to kind of compensate for that through like extra, extra exposure in that sense. So I think it was like, of course, they knew from the fact I'd be growing up in America, I would grow up with English regardless, but really wanting to make it so I'd be able to fully communicate only in Japanese with my mom and my Japanese family. It was important to them as well. Yeah.

[Marvin]

Obviously, I'm not a parent, so I don't know how your parents might have felt, but I guess I can understand if you're a mother and you, if you don't raise your child in your language entirely, the fear that your child will never be able to have a fluent conversation with you because of your own lack of proficiency in English, for example. I think that's a very, very understandable feeling.

[Kisara]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've sometimes had moments where I'm like, if my dad forgot how to speak Japanese one day, what would happen to their family? That kind of thing. For sure, it's kind of precarious, but also rewarding, I guess, the fact that it just motivates you that much more to really preserve that dynamic. And I do think that there's a lot of just intention that had to go behind. I think Japanese specifically is a language, too, for the reasons I mentioned with just its inherent difficulty as a language and the fact that there's just not really many native speakers in the US nowadays, yeah.

[Marvin]

The reason they sent you to this Saturday school, was that also because they had a similar plan of maybe you would go back to Japan and would like to reintegrate or integrate not maybe reintegrate into the Japanese society? Was that a plan your parents had?

[Kisara]

I think they wanted that option to be available for me, for sure. I think since I grew up here and college was also here, they didn't have that expectation for me to necessarily move there. I know it's kind of ironic, like, oh, this Japanese Japanese, but haven't even lived in Japan. But I do think like I personally speaking, would really love to spend time actually living there at some point. So in that sense, if not for the fact that they put that much effort into my kind of Japanese upbringing, I don't know that I would feel that same way about just practically speaking, being able to live in Japan. And so, so, yeah, I hope that answers your question.

[Anna]

It sounds like growing up, you shared in the video, you had a bit of a tough time in school with, you know, some perceptions of your language background and your proficiency of English. We were wondering how did those experiences affect your perception of language backgrounds or, you know, of your own language evolution over time?

[Kisara]

Yes, definitely have thought a lot about just, I guess that's kind of a big mission focus for your magazine as well to look at every situation is is kind of unique in its own way. Like every maybe like, you know, even monolingual households, just like, there are so many things that go into someone's language upbringing parents, obviously, but also just like the part of the country live in just like all these variables. So I think, yeah, it definitely, I think, is made it so kind of this more maybe like a sociocultural thing, but like, definitely has allowed me to relate quite a bit to other kids who have immigrant parents, ESL kids, that sort of thing and noticing some parallels in that way.

[Marvin]

Yeah. So is there anything you would personally do different if you had kids, maybe from a perspective of your current linguistic background as well, not necessarily as advice for your parents in the past, but for your...

[Kisara]

Yeah, you know, I kind of want to, part of me is kind of greedy, and wants them to know five languages! I grew up with five different languages at once, which is horrendous. But because I did, I also have a background in Chinese and Korean, which is actually so like, thank goodness, for knowing Japanese actually wonders. I'm sure I know at least maybe Marvin, you have a background in Japanese and Korean, and so forth. So I  definitely feel super blessed that Japanese has opened doors for learning other languages like those.

So I think in an ideal world, it would be cool to raise them with all of those. But what realistically can happen, I think as an adult, it was like, looking back, it was worth it. That whole upbringing, well I would like to think that if I did the same for my future children, that they would also  maybe they’d hate it as kids, but then they grow up to appreciate the fact that they have that second language.

And it just is an opportunity, like it is something that you can always revisit.

[Anna]

Yeah, you mentioned that, you know, growing up at home monolingually in Japanese, it did affect your, your proficiency, and therefore you were labeled like a slow kid in school because of your English proficiency. It's really quite amazing to see that, you know, you shared, that now you are actually learning so many languages. How did you overcome that?

I mean it's not easy for a child who's already been labeled or who's already facing, you know, perceptions of the people around you. You know, you also mentioned in the video that you even had people laughing at you. How did, with all that experience, how did you overcome all those experiences so that today you become so proficient in English? And even, speaking more than just one language, you're learning the other languages as well.

[Kisara]

I actually feel, in some ways, those other languages, like Chinese or Korean, let's say, that, like, they were, how would I put it, they were empowering for me to learn because I think there's something about being a complete foreigner. Like, getting to just fit under one box of being a foreigner, unlike native Chinese speakers, native Korean speakers. Kind of, like, it just felt more straightforward. Maybe just like, okay, because I guess with Japanese or English, there is this whole nuanced thing of okay, you grew up with these languages, your parents are native speakers of these languages, but you're not, like, in some ways, fully accepted one way or the other. 

And, you know, I think, even with Japanese, obviously, like, I didn't literally grow up in Japan.So obviously, there's, there's the things that, like, I'm missing with Japanese as well, even with all the exposure I've gotten to Japanese. 

So, I think it, in that sense, like, it was really cool to have something that really, it gave me more confidence. Even though it was learning Chinese or Korean from just ground zero as like, kind of a young adult, you could say, oh, you would expect it to be challenging. And it did have its challenges.

Maybe psychologically, it was nice to kind of feel like, okay, I'm just, I'm just another, foreigner learning these languages. And they're just going to treat me as a foreigner learning these languages. And there isn't, like, I don't know, like, wishy-washiness there. 

[Anna]

So do you mean, like, there's, um in, like, learning Chinese and Korean, because you're really, truly a foreigner in that sense? So does it mean that you feel like you don't have that sort of responsibility or expectation that you're supposed to be good at this language in that sense?

[Kisara]

Exactly. I think that there's definitely way less pressure that just comes with, oh, you're a foreigner, like, they kind of set their expectations, like, their expectations are rock bottom in a way that it's not “if you're a heritage speaker, native, obviously, native speaker”, I think, like, Chinese speakers or Korean speakers have actually appreciated my Chinese or Korean more than say, like, a Japanese speaker would my Japanese simply because they're just like, “Oh, you can take for granted that you're, you grew up with Japanese”, whereas the Chinese or Korean speakers, like, “Whoa, you didn't grow up with this language, but you can speak it with us!” That's, it's kind of more rewarding in that sense, maybe. 

So one other thing, I just realized, thinking back to Marvin's question earlier, that hasn't come up yet in this conversation is when it comes to, I think, like second language acquisition, like having siblings, I notice, is a huge, huge variable for people when it comes to how proficient they become in their second language.

Because even like if you have siblings, like if you're the oldest or the youngest, I noticed there's a pattern, not to like generalize, but I do notice like a lot of people like who grew up, you know, with two languages at home, they, like the older sibling tends to know the, like, I guess the second, let's just say like the language is Chinese that they'll know and they grew up in the US. And so their household speaks English and Chinese and the older kid is more likely to be proficient in Chinese than the younger kid? Maybe because the parents kind of give that first kid, like the household can operate fully, like almost fully in Chinese. 

But if it's like a second kid, the siblings will speak with each other in English. So that second kid might, you know, not get as much exposure to Chinese and stuff like that. So I find just like, like I'm an only child. I think that probably goes without saying at this point, but I think, like it's also something I thought about. Like, if I had a sibling, maybe like that would have been, that would have made a difference in the sense I would have probably inevitably had more English exposure to speaking English with a sibling, being in America and everything. I was a little bit more insulated when it was just me, my parents and me and only Japanese. Yeah.

[Marvin]

I think what you just mentioned about a language being or a second language being empowering, for me it's a very different context from yours, but actually in high school in Germany, we learned Spanish and French and other foreign languages. And I was kind of ‘the science kid’ and I hated going to Spanish class. I hated languages. Everything about language was just, very, very foreign concept to me. And I thought I couldn't grasp it. 

And that's also what my teachers reflected to me, basically telling me, oh, maybe you're just not made for learning languages. Maybe you're just also, like saying something like, basically telling me I'm the slow kid when it comes to languages. And actually when graduating from high school, that's when I started studying Japanese. 

And that was the first time in my life that I actively decided to study a language. And I noticed it's fun for me to learn something I'm actually interested in learning. For me, there was also this empowering experience where I was able to, in a way, prove my teachers wrong and prove my surroundings wrong and myself wrong. To this day, I haven't touched Spanish again, but I can somehow, in a way, relate to what you said about a second language being an empowering feeling.

[Kisara]

You also have a choice, I guess, right? There's agency that comes with you being the one choosing what language, if you're born into the languages, yeah.

[Marvin]

So did your experience or your decision in choosing Korean and Chinese to learn, was that also influenced by your proficiency in Japanese? For instance, because Korean and Chinese, share a lot of vocabulary with Japanese?

[Kisara]

I would say, ironically, so Chinese was kind of an accident in the way, like I always, ooh, Chinese, it's like, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, there's sort of this East Asian language trifecta, right? But I think my high school didn't offer Japanese as a language. A lot of high schools in America still do offer Japanese, but mine didn't. And I was kind of salty about the fact like, oh, like I could just get my language requirements out of the way, like I could take Japanese classes, but they offered Chinese. And I thought it was like looking back, such a happy accident that they didn't, they offered Chinese instead of Japanese. So I was forced to like, learn this new language.

And I think, yeah, it's my, I think it's funny, like I geek out quite a bit actually on just parallels between Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, because I just find it so fascinating that like, in a way, when you speak Japanese, you're also speaking Chinese and Korean without realizing. And same goes for the other two. 

So, not to now go down that rabbit hole, but yeah, I think that, like, as I've studied these languages, my appreciation for the similarities with Japanese have become more apparent. It's become more apparent, yeah.

[Anna]

So personally, I grew up bilingual and actually with exposure to more than two languages. So I found that in my journey learning languages, I found it easier for me to pronounce words in another language, and pick up different kinds of grammar. Did you find that in comparison to your friends in school, who were monolingual, that you picked up Chinese a lot faster than they did?

[Kisara]

Not to, you know, toot my own horn, but yes, I was able to skip levels in my Chinese. Like it was kind of crazy with Chinese actually. Like, I went from like first year Chinese to like, sixth year Chinese in my high school in just a couple of years, because it was just like… I think also, of course there's like, I think a lot of high schools in America are also just very slow at teaching Chinese, expecting everyone to not… Like the characters are definitely a huge part of it. So, definitely felt like it was, yeah, it was Japanese made a huge difference for reading and writing.

[Anna]

Because I mean, imagine if you had taken Korean, I wouldn't have been as surprised if the jump was so fast, because I mean, Korean, the grammar is a lot more similar to Japanese, but even in kanji in Japanese, when we learn Chinese in the simplified kanji, it's quite different from Japanese kanji. Yeah, so I would, in my opinion, it's not just your Japanese background actually, that gave you an advantage in Chinese, but probably your ability to navigate different languages that probably gave you that advantage. That's how I see it at least, yeah.

[Marvin]

I just wanted to explain the term kanji to the listeners, because… so kanji is the Japanese word for Chinese characters. And the Chinese languages and Japanese share a lot of these characters in daily use. So that's probably how Kisara had a little bit of an advantage, maybe studying Chinese, because the script is a very big hurdle for that.

[Anna]

Yeah, although Marvin, even though there is a lot of similarity, there's also a lot of difference, because I think Chinese has moved into the simplified kanji. So it's a simplified character, whereas Japanese is still, are still holding on to the traditional characters. So I don't know whether Kisara experienced it, because when I…so I studied Chinese first before I moved to Japanese.

And when I studied my Japanese, I lost a lot of my Chinese reading, because then the characters were so different from the Japanese characters, even though it could have been even the same, same reading sometimes. But the characters were totally different. So I don't, yeah, I'm sure Kisara has experienced that as well, like some, like a difference in the characters.

[Kisara]

Definitely the characters, like I know like in Taiwan, they still use like, traditional, or I guess there's like a mix of things, but more likely to find traditional characters. And like, I know that, but those are still different from Japanese characters too. So it's all a hodgepodge of things. 

But I know Korean also has, there are all these Sinic words, like words taken from Japanese or Chinese, right? But Koreans wouldn't necessarily know, like the character that it came from, right? They just like know the, kind of like if Koreans, kind of like if Japanese were only hiragana, right?

Like, so it's, I think they're all just so interconnected in more ways than I feel like people might think. I realized, yeah.

[Marvin]

Actually, like in the, I think, late 20th century, there was also a period of time where Korean was written very similarly to Japanese with the kanji or hanja in Korean in, like similar places. So in Japanese, you would mix the scripts, right? And in like in the late 20th century in Korean as well, they mixed the hanja with hangul and all the grammatical functions were written in hangul and all the nouns were written in Korean, for example. So, I feel like that also declined in the recent years a lot.

[Kisara]

Yeah. I know like in elementary schools in Korea, they still maybe teach some like hanja, like, you know, Chinese characters and stuff, but yeah, like they don't really even need to know them, right? Like they're native speakers.

So in that sense, I think Korean's actually the hardest language to learn of these three we've been talking about because it's just like, like they can kind of get, like native speakers can get away with not knowing the character roots for everything. But foreigner, like learning it, it's like, how do you, there are like 10 words that have the same pronunciation, but you have no way to tell them apart, right? Yeah. So yeah, my whole take… but...

[Marvin]

I kind of feel that because you need to have this huge amount of knowledge of the language to see these connections between words because the syllables obviously sound the same, but are like coming from different roots. And a person who is maybe a first language Korean speaker has all this knowledge of all these other words and can kind of bridge the gaps. But when you study Korean, it's a little bit more difficult to see these connections.

[Anna]

Yeah. And we won't have as much contextual clues, you know, in the sentences. We're just trying to figure it out. I was thinking, Kisara, when you were talking about your dad, I was thinking Mabu's having in his head, you know, like Marvin's like thinking, oh, maybe we should get her dad in to like translate.

[Kisara]

I think he would be very interesting to talk to because his idea, sorry, now I don't want to make this all about my geek dad, but his idea of a fun Friday night is… I don't know if you guys have heard of this book called The Devotion of Suspect X. It's a Japanese novel that, it's like a, I think, crime fiction novel. It's actually quite good, but they translated it into, from the Japanese, into English, but also Chinese and Korean. And he's literally reading them in all those different languages and just for fun. That's like his idea.

[Marvin]

I'm doing that with a little prince right now.

[Anna]

Yeah, so you know, your dad could totally be our friend.

[Kisara]

Wait, you said you were originally ‘a science kid’, right? So what changed, if you've like, completely become the language kid now?

[Marvin]

That's so interesting too. Actually, I was thinking about that. How did that happen?

I think for me, it's when I realized that language could be a language science. So what I was interested in is like geeking out about things and like reading papers and stuff. So when I first, so, I was in high school in Germany. We also have majors and I was majoring in physics and math. And I was, at that time I became, so my academic, how do you say that?

[Anna]

A decline?

[Marvin]

Yeah, my academic…

[Anna]

Progress?

[Marvin]

Knowledge, progress, declined a lot. I got very bad grades for some reason. And then I realized, okay, there was this language. So back then I was very interested in Chinese characters for some reason. I just like the way they looked. And on, like some random family vacation in Sweden, I decided to start learning Mandarin and dropped it after like a week.

Then for some reason, I think accidentally, I've realized that, or I found out that Japanese also has kanji. And at that point I was like, oh, I could like try and learn these characters. And initially I only wanted to learn the characters because that's what I was interested in. And then I realized it wouldn't make any sense without learning the language as well. So that's how I started learning Japanese. 

And then through that, I kind of got into this, oh wait, this is a topic I can geek out about.This is something I can like, deep dive into and like find rabbit holes I can enjoy spending time in. And that's, I feel how I also found out about linguistics and found out about, oh, “I can do what I'm passionate about”, which is necessarily not science, but this scientific way of thinking. I can do that with language as well. And if it's actually fun, I also see progress in a way. So that's, I think how it shifted.

[Kisara]

Wow, so would you consider, since you did start off with Chinese, like do you think you'll go back to studying Chinese?

[Marvin]

Oh, I'm studying Chinese right now.

[Kisara]

Oh, okay, okay. So, wow, yeah.

[Marvin]

Yeah, but definitely Chinese is one of those on-off languages for me. I'm studying it for like two months and then something more sparkly appears in my peripheral vision. Then I start, saying that, but it's a language I always go back to and I'm always stuck somewhere at the basics, but it's always fun to study, and something I can go back to. I think through Japanese and Korean, and Vietnamese, which I'm also studying, it's something I'm used to in a way. Where it's okay that I'm a beginner at all times, but it still feels like a homey feeling in language terms, I guess.

[Kisara]

Yeah, I hear you on that.

[Marvin]

I'm like trying to apply for studying abroad in Taiwan. So I guess that could be a reason.

[Anna]

Yeah, Kisara, before we get too far into Mabu's life instead, I actually was thinking about how this entire video was really about a decision that your parents made about your language acquisition when you were younger. And we talked about the turning point, right? Where your dad realized that he wanted to have English conversations with you. Beyond having those conversations with you, what other ways did your dad then support you in terms of your English acquisition after that?

[Kisara]

Yeah, besides the conversation, I think definitely, he tried to get me to read more books. I didn't love reading books though, I'll be honest. Just like growing up as a kid, was honestly not an avid reader, but he did try. But yeah, I think just in very tangible terms, those were the main, like I was already, you know, since I'm in America, there were naturally ways where I would get some exposure to English, just like obviously living here with American friends and American school and stuff. So I guess within the parameters where he could make a pretty big difference in my English exposure, it was ultimately like domestic, like changes in how we interacted at home. But shoot, I thought I had something else to say, but it's, oh, just, yeah, I guess one thing I would also add is like, I think it's interesting in thinking about like, bilingual upbringings.

Like how to define bilingual, right? Because so many people I think picture it as like raising a kid in literally two different languages in one house. And maybe that's the way most people try and go about it. But the fact that my parents are like, no, no English in the house, like for, so my dad and I then had one-on-one conversations in English when I was like 12 onwards. I think it, yeah, definitely there's a lot of, like, does that count as, I guess, like a bilingual upbringing, right, is also a question. Like I always struggle when I think like, should that be defined as bilingual if like my parents were really only raising me in one language that's different from the rest of society, I guess, in a way. But anyway, not to speak in circles here, but just the thought that I had, an epiphany that taught me as we were talking more and more about everything. But I hope that answered your original question.

[Anna]

Yeah, I mean, it's a, the definition of bilingual is quite interesting for me because in Singapore, we do have a situation whereby we're essentially a bilingual education system, but actually not all families are proficient in both languages equally. And therefore you have this, in certain situations you have this false bilingual background, in the sense that you have a child coming into school, nurtured by parents in two different languages, but one of the languages is really not, not really at a proficient level. And it's created, in fact, some problems with their language acquisition because they've got.. we've got this thing called ‘Singlish’ in Singapore. It's in Singapore, Creole, or yeah, it's a pidgin English in that sense. It's been mixed with a lot of languages and because Singapore is a multicultural place. So we find students coming into schools actually not really being effective English speakers necessarily because they speak actually Singlish at home rather than English, but with their parents thinking that they raised their children bilingually.

Yeah, so we do have, I mean, the idea of the conception of what is bilingual upbringing is up for debate, right? It's like what you said, it's really hard to kind of, I'm sure I'm not linguistically trained and I wonder whether Marvin can answer this question for us, whether there is a linguistic definition for bilingual upbringing?

[Marvin]

I think the problem with any word that contains the word ‘lingual’, first of all, there is no definition for what a ‘language’ is and there is also no definition, that's not a good definition for what a’ native speaker’ is. So there's also a question of, in English, it definitely means a different thing than in Germany. Bilingual in Germany means entirely being raised with two different native languages, and in English, bilingual also means if you're able to speak two languages when you're an adult, for example. At least that's my perception of how it is in German. I'm not sure if that's entirely correct. 

Yeah, I guess bilingual is also a word in linguistics that has various different definitions. It's not an easy thing to answer and this thing of bilingualism and raising children bilingually is I think one of the most controversial topics right now in linguistics discourse and in linguistics education. It's not a thing we can answer in the scope of this podcast, I feel. But, I think it was wonderful that we were able to listen to your story, Kisara, and hopefully the listeners as well get a little more insight on this topic and maybe think about this problem that you faced in your upbringing a little more.

[Kisara]

Yeah, definitely. I just, since you're kind of on an ending note there, I think, in America at least, I think a lot of Americans are aware that Americans don't make enough of an effort to learn a language besides English or even American English, right? The fact a lot of Brits learn an American accent, you see that in Hollywood, but what American can even pull off a British accent, right? So there's this whole hierarchy within English, right? And so I think it's definitely, I think, kind of glorified in a way that if you do speak a language besides English, it is something that really stands out about you just culturally or socially here, and just for a lot of people. And I guess I think so many people focus on the positives.

And I think one thing for just for me, while making that video, but also just in life, just reflecting, I think it's the fact that, even if it's worth it in the end, just know that it isn't all rainbows and unicorns. Especially as parents, that is taking on a lot of extra time and effort and mental energy, for the kid too. And so I think it's just something that it's helpful for people to be aware of just what they're getting themselves into if they do raise their kids that way, instead of just like, “Oh, growing up bilingual, so cool, I'm so jealous, that must be so nice” as if it's just something that fall on your lap, right?

[Anna]

Yeah, I think for me, the biggest learning point for me, listening to your experience and this entire conversation is really the reminder that language is really a very big part of identity. And so it's… who we are, and how we were brought up, and how language plays a part in that, is such an important part of us trying to form our own identities. And that's why you struggle with certain things in your confidence and things like that when you're younger. And that's why we have this debate, even for myself, I do have a child. So even as a parent, I also think about how  my bringing up of my child in different languages would also affect her identity. So I think I feel like maybe a way to think about this whole situation is really about the intimacy between language and identity. That's so, you just can't divorce those two. Yeah, that I think has brought about this entire situation for you and that sparked this conversation between us.

[Kisara]

Yeah, absolutely. Even raising your kid monolingually is a choice, right? Like everyone is making a choice even if they don't realize it. Not to get super meta here, but absolutely. This is super insightful. So yeah, thank you.

[Anna]

And thank you, Kisara. Yeah, I think we are really honored that you are willing to come, especially knowing that we're so new and our podcast is our first time trying our podcast. So, I think I speak for Marvin and myself and the rest of the Lingofile crew as well to say that we're really grateful that you are willing to meet us today. I'll let the boss say the rest of that.

[Marvin]

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for joining us today and thank you for telling us about your experience. And also thank you to the listeners for listening to us talking about several different topics, not only about Kisara's experiences, but also we delved a little more into Anna's and my experience as well. And yeah, I hope everyone enjoyed. Thank you.

[Kisara]

Yeah, thank you.

[Anna]

Thank you.

[Marvin]

This podcast is a production by Linguaphile Magazine, a non-profit linguistics communication project dedicated to the people behind languages. You can find us under linguaphilemagazine.org or under @linguaphile.mag on Instagram. Also consider supporting us on our Patreon so we can continue to do our work.

Special thanks to our guest, Kisara Takahashi for sharing her insights on bilingual upbringing. You can find Kisara on YouTube under @Kisara_Takahashi. All links are also in the show notes.

Follow us on your podcast streaming service to not miss any future episodes. And now have a wonderful day.